Non Quatos Build Problem

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Non Quatos Build Problem

Postby pilotnbr1 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:09 am

So I have finally gotten around to trying to fly my little home built brushed quad using internal radio and esc. I simply would like to fly it without quatos and just get going with pid (if that even makes sense). Do my intentions require me to flash the M4 with a non-quatos firmware?

What I am trying to avoid is going thru all the quatos geometric calculations on my first build... I know, I know- I should have just made it easy and built a stock Lady Bird :?

Under my current setup M4 v2 AQ FW ver: 7.0 - EXPR rev432 b1848, HW ver: 8 rev6 I cannot get the motors to turn unless I put in some thrust a1, a2, and scale values borrowed from the Ladybird build on the site...
Otherwise I have a predefined quad x and YES I do have a valid quatos key in there if that makes a difference.

Thanks again for all the help and sorry to be such a pain in the ass! :)

Luke
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Re: Non Quatos Build Problem

Postby Max » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:46 am

Hi Luke,

pilotnbr1 wrote:Do my intentions require me to flash the M4 with a non-quatos firmware?

Yep. Unfortunately there's no way to turn Quatos on/off with just settings.

pilotnbr1 wrote:I should have just made it easy and built a stock Lady Bird

How different is it? Are you using similar motors + props? It might just fly OK with the default LB config. I've tried that config on number of micros, some that don't look anything like a LB, and it really works fine. Tweaking the XML a bit later might help.

pilotnbr1 wrote:Under my current setup M4 v2 AQ FW ver: 7.0 - EXPR rev432 b1848, HW ver: 8 rev6 I cannot get the motors to turn unless I put in some thrust a1, a2, and scale values

That's correct, motors won't spin up w/out those numbers. Those numbers are purely based on motor + prop combo, so the frame design itself doesn't matter. The Scale Factor is always 3.5 for the brushed motors.

There's a database of Excel spreadsheets somewhere around here from Steve (Kisssys) with a A1/A2 numbers for a bunch of motor/prop combos...

The main adjustment factor needed is if your quad is overpowered compared to the stock LB config, you may need to lower* the A1/A2 numbers (Correction Rate and Thrust Rate in QGC). Or on the other hand you may need to raise them a bit if the response is sluggish.

*("Lower" in this case means closer to zero -- those numbers can be positive or negative -- I forget which way they're set in the LB config file. In other words, for example, 20 = -20. So when I say "lower" that means set it to 10 or -10, for example.)

HTH,
-Max
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Re: Non Quatos Build Problem

Postby pilotnbr1 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:02 am

Just reflashed firmware to AQ FW ver: 7.0 - BETA rev442 b1848, HW ver: 8 rev6 which per the firmware download wizard I did not select quatos. In the parameters file I still see quatos values. I also still have the issue of not being able to turn the motors after arming...
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Re: Non Quatos Build Problem

Postby pilotnbr1 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:08 am

Thanks for the reply Max, I just saw it now.

This little quad is a mini-H built out of polycarb.. About 100mm or so with 8.5mm hubsan motors and props.

Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and see what calculations quatos requires...

Using the Ladybird numbers for thrust a1, a2, and scale and the other numbers being the default that came on the M4- I had strange throttle response. I would start advancing the throttle and suddenly it would come alive and go to max rpm before I even went past 25% throttle or so. That was with arm, min, and start at 0 and max at 1050... Any ideas or insights on that? EDIT-maybe ill just play with the a1 and a2 values
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Re: Non Quatos Build Problem

Postby Max » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:18 am

The Quatos params will still be in PID firmware, so that's normal. You need different settings for PID though. I think the Arm/Min/Start PWM values (on Misc. Settings page) need to be entered, though not sure what to use for the onborad ESCs. You could try the normal defaults:

Code: Select all
#define DEFAULT_MOT_ARM          975
#define DEFAULT_MOT_MIN          1000
#define DEFAULT_MOT_START       1125


-Max
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Re: Non Quatos Build Problem

Postby Max » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:28 am

I don't see any thrust numbers in Steve's data for a Hubsan 8.5mm motor, but you could try with the numbers from a Chaoli 0820-15 w/Hubsan prop:

A1: 4.4965
A2: 0.5867

He also has some numbers from LB Infra-X motors which I know are 8.5mm, but I'm not sure which props he was using here (I suspect LB props):

A1: 3.6695
A2: 0.5854

I've actually used the Chaoli numbers with Infra-X motors & Hubsan props and it works fine. I suspect all those motors are fairly close to each other in ratings.

-Max
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Re: Non Quatos Build Problem

Postby pilotnbr1 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:47 am

So could I just load the Quatos firmware version and then just play with the A1 and A2 values? Or do I also need to load the rest of the lady bird quatos file to get ball park?

Thanks!

Luke
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Re: Non Quatos Build Problem

Postby LPR » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:04 am

Luke

I have a number of quads with Hubsan 8.5mm motors and 2" props that fly great using Quatos FW and the ladybird parameter file. Some of the quads had props upward and some downward and they all flew quite well.

Larry
Attachments
51-1-3 Ladybird PARAMS.txt
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Last edited by LPR on Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Non Quatos Build Problem

Postby Max » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:50 am

pilotnbr1 wrote:Or do I also need to load the rest of the lady bird quatos file to get ball park?

Well you need the mixing table and J matrix values, and the other Quatos tuning params, so yes, I'd start with the LB config, or Larry's. Like he said, it really works well on different frames.

You can also use the attached XML file as a starting point for yours. Just load it in the QGC Mixing table using the little import XML button. This is set up for a LB with slightly longer arms and the heavier 8.5mm motors. This is what I've used with a few different frames, and it did help a bit vs. using the LB config for 7mm motors.

-Max
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M4_LB_X_8mm.xml
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Re: Non Quatos Build Problem

Postby pilotnbr1 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:29 pm

Thanks for all the responses guys! I flashed back to a Quatos firmware and loaded a complete Lady Bird quatos file tweaked a little for my motors (before I saw the attached files from Larry and Max). Motors arm and spin with the throttle response seeming to be correct!

I thought I was ready to fly but after a couple attempts it would just flip over or be out of control. So holding in my hand and observing that props were spinning in the correct direction and seeing it react to tilting it one way or the other it was behaving very randomly to angles. I tried a few more leveling calibrations and compass calibrations without any real change. Finally I hooked it back up to QGC to see what the hud was showing. It has significant attitude drift. By tilting the M4 I can easily confuse it as to where the horizon is. I think I have a bad gyro(s)... Previously when i first got the M4 and setup QGC it reacted very reliably in regard to inputs and the horizon. So this is something new that is broken or not set correctly. Any ideas? I might post a video to demonstrate if that helps.

EDIT-- so after opening up a much larger window for a HUD to document what was being displayed as drift- the M4 and horizon react properly. I think what I was seing earlier in the smaller HUD window was latency between my laptop and the M4 (I am running Ubuntu/linux on an older laptop and had lots of other stuff open so the system may have been lagging). So gyros and M4 seem to be working right. I think maybe I have some sort of orientation issue with the predefined quad x and where the front of the M4 is. I will look into my orientation and get back. I think I should have this flying soon.

Luke
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